Great Timing…
So Wednesday, only a few days away from rendering, I was streaming some TV and got a virus. This wasn’t some annoying spyware, but this was a virus that ate my system. I couldn’t open programs, I couldn’t even try to fix it. My first solution was to punch a hole in the wooden door in my room. Surprisingly, this didn’t fix the situation. Before even trying to fix things I did an emergency render (not in great quality) and sent it off to Bizzle while my computer was essentially covered in AIDS. I made a copy of the project file, and put it on my second HD which has all of my fraps files and unplugged that.
Immediately after, I had no choice but to restart, and after doing that I could no longer get into windows. Long story short, I lose everything on my first HD and had to format. Since there was only fraps files on my second HD and I was able to save the project files, after a day of reinstalling trying to salvage files everything is back and ready to go. This was some terrible timing and the whole project could have been easily lost, along with the fact that Bizzle is going away on Saturday and things were in a rush, and I’m in exam period right now. But an all-nighter and a door later, everything is back in order and on schedule. Should be able to render this weekend.
Cataclysm Wishlist
Now, I’m well aware cataclysm is still a long way away, but I came up with a basic wish list for our class in the expansion, some changes in direction that would be improvements. While I understand that we can’t have everything, as all classes must have their weaknesses and counters, I think these would be fair adjustments and improvements to make our class as balanced and fun as it can be.
Vanish: Working as Originally Intended
Instant hostile abilities occurring at the same time as vanish should not cause vanish to break, as there are far too many in the game and this will often occur unintentionally and break vanish. Abilities and projectiles that occur slightly after vanish and treat it as thought it never occurred (i.e. Getting blinded, deathcoiled, shived, auto-attacked, or fireblasted out of vanish) is a broken mechanic that should be fixed.
The 3.3 attempted vanish fix showed us that Blizzard is aware of the problem but doesn’t know how to solve it. We don’t want god mode unbreakable vanish, we just want the bugs removed from it.
Address our Survivability Issues
Rogues are one of the most often focused classes in the game. Our biggest issue is not our low survivability, but rather the fact that we cannot break cc in any way other than with trinket. We therefore are extremely susceptible to damage that occurs during stuns or cc. During this time, the defenses of dodge or cloak of shadows are meaningless. It would be a big help and put greater control into our hands if we were able to defend ourselves during stuns without the requiem of a PvP trinket.
An idea here? Make cloak usable during stuns. With this change, it might be worth it to pick of the cloak glyph that reduces physical damage and this would probably give us the adequate counter to stuns that we desperately need.
Kidney Shot should Be our Class Defining Ability
As WoW’s stun lock class, kidney shot should be our signature move. It is often dodged, blocked, or parried. It can be removed by ret paladin’s hand of freedom. There are also too many comparable stuns that other classes have that are as good or stronger than KS situationally (Deep Freeze, Hammer of Justice, Gnaw (ranged stun), Bash/Maim, etc). Kidney shot is also on DR with all stuns, making it clearly on the same level or lower.
Make Kidney shot WoW’s defining stun, it should be what it used to be: the best stun in the game.
Not Only Can we not Kill Healers Alone, We Can’t Even Come close
Right now, rogues can’t even come close to killing competent and skilled healers by themselves. What other dps class is in this situation? I know things are balanced around arena, but when a paladin can beat us without casting, a priest without using cooldowns, or a druid without ever shifting or doing anything but spamming hots, there is some issue. When a warrior sits on a healer alone in 3s, they put our enough pressure to force cooldowns by themselves. Rogues are not able to do this in PvP gear, and although we aren’t the “train a healer” class, our damage and pressure is still pretty pitiful for an MS class. Warriors bring MS effect to the table that’s indispensable, and at the same time bring damage that can be unhealable. Rogue damage is not sufficient at the moment, or instead of damage we can call it burst. This stems from the nature of our damage, which is more steady damage over time than burst. Burst is necessary in PvP and we need more of it.
Make All of Our Trees Viable for Something
Right now, it’s all about assassination. I know there is big talent tree revamps coming with cataclysm, but I guess what I’m asking for here is that each tree is at least viable for something. If combat is mean to be the PvE tree, then make it that. Currently, Sub isn’t particularly good for anything. It would be nice if we had some very distinctive and viable trees for PvP like other classes, because at the moment a rogue is a rogue in terms of talents, they aren’t distinguishable except through play-style and gear.
It would be cool if each spec for a rogue made the class look, feel, and play significantly differently. Look at warlocks for example. A destro lock, afflication lock, and demonology lock are all very different in play style. Lately, rogues are all very much the same.
Cold Blood Can use an Update
Cold blood has been around since rogues came into existence. It’s a nice ability and does give us some control in our burst. That being said, it’s kind of a lame ability for a 21 point talent. A big reason I feel this way is that our abilities already have a very high chance to crit. Even our biggest burst abilities like envenom usually don’t reach fantasic numbers. I’m well aware of their potentials in ideal situations (yeah of course you’ll get the occasional 9 k crit when you have 5 stack and your target is in dirty deeds range) but usually we can’t pull off those kind of numbers. I think cold blood needs to have some additional effect. A damage buff of some sort on the ability used and maybe on abilities that come after, such as a 20 percent damage buff to the ability using cold-blood, or a guaranteed extra combo point when cold blood is used. Whatever it would may be, I think this ability could use some flavor going forward.
These are just some ideas, I’m sure there are lots more that make as much or more sense. What do you guys think?
Related posts:
Nice Post Akrios, CoS While Stuned Is Nice, Regards.
Comment by Mibr — December 18, 2009 @ 12:03 am
Very nice ideas. Cloak during a stun would be very helpful.
I was wondering if you could make a post on weapon choices in regards to speed as well as poisons.
For example whether you prefer 1.8/1.8 MH Deadly/OH wound or 1.8/1.4 MH wound/OH deadly.
Thanks.
Comment by Ruinx — December 18, 2009 @ 12:05 am
Trainable Shadowstep and more armor?
Viable IMO
Comment by Jesselol — December 18, 2009 @ 12:23 am
I think combat tree isn’t the right place for Nerves of steel.
Comment by Leet — December 18, 2009 @ 12:38 am
trainable shadowstep is the dream haha, but that just doesn’t seem likely. I agree with nerves of steel, maybe low tier sub when they consolidate some stealth talents? Just seems like they have no idea what to do with combat right now, having PvP talents deep in it like Nerves or the DT silence seems so random.
Comment by Akrios — December 18, 2009 @ 12:55 am
porn > eviserate X, that coulda been one hell of a story
Comment by alk — December 18, 2009 @ 1:25 am
I like the Cloak of Shadows usable while stunned, heck everything mentioned here I agree with 100%
Comment by Zeneroth — December 18, 2009 @ 1:46 am
Shadowstep is mediocre enough now that trainable isn’t out of the question. Not being able to use it while rooted is crippling; it really isn’t worthy of being a 41 point talent in its current incarnation.
Comment by Failure — December 18, 2009 @ 2:34 am
I think that the subtlety tree biggest flaw right now is its end talent. Shadow Dance is horrible, or atleast IMO. Then reason for this is simple, if you wanna use shadow dance, you have to use daggers. Why? You ask. Without ambush, going into stealth aint worth much, you cannot use CS as it shares diminish returns with nearly all other stuns and you cannot use garrot more than once in that time frame, or the damage and silence is a waste of your energy. I dont think they should make Shadowstep trainable, but finding another end talent would be a much better way to go for it.
I dont think it has to be damage, just some form of control or survivability. Making assasination the burst damage pvp tree or single target pve tree and subtlety the survival pvp tree.
If any of you played the original DotA or also HoN i think, there is a hero with an ability called smokescreen (dont know if it has the same name in HoN). This cloud makes every enemy inside it slowed and greatly increases their chance to miss. Maybe giving rogues another ‘evasion’ is a bad idea, but being able to throw down a cloud on your target slowing them, but movement, attack and casting speed, would be awesome. Also it would be fairly balanced. Just compare it to the DK’s antimagic shell. If you move out of it, it’s worthless, but quite powerfull aslong as your inside it. This will also increase the value of our stuns, as stunning them inside this could be game winning.
Woah, that turned into some kind of wall of text.
Comment by Reenchy — December 18, 2009 @ 2:47 am
as said above ,SS in its current form is very mediocre at best , played sub for month now , with the number of root/snar being spammable 30sc cd is just insanely long , also Cos while stuned would be awesome against other rogue
Comment by Elohïm — December 18, 2009 @ 4:29 am
Very nice post
.
@Reenchy Afaik Cheap Shot is on its own diminishing returns and even though the garrote silence is on DR, you can still prevent or interrupt quite some spells with it. And why is it such a bad thing that dance would require daggers? Assassination requires daggers too + I just love to backstab ppl, reminds me of the good old mutilate
The only problem with Shadow Dance is the same as with Cold Blood, it can be really powerful in ideal situations, but ideal situations are rare. Dance requires you to be behind your target and in melee range. So it fails if you are too far away, rooted, stunned, feared or some other shit. I think the way to fix Shadow Dance is, to give it a buff like Bladestorm, you can’t be stopped unless killed.
Comment by Carpedies — December 18, 2009 @ 4:47 am
Yeah i agree that they have to fix the fukcing vanish bug. I’m göad they are aware of it, but i mean come on. Shouldn’t we have abilities that works? xP
Well rly nice ideas anyway.
Comment by Rohx — December 18, 2009 @ 4:47 am
Uhm… You got some very nice ideas Akrios but the thing that bugs me is that rogues are asking for more burst, yes, mayeb rogues are all about steady dps, but that’s no reason for giving rogues more burst and therefor make it another skilless OP class.. and when rogues get more burst, other classes want more burst and burst is the soul problem of wotlk pvp, its all about burst and less skill.. Instead of asking for rogues to get more burst why not just nerf down all other classes to the level that makes their overall dps and healing steady instead of bursty.. Because asking for more damage will only put pvp and its balance in a worse position than it is now.
Comment by Cruxe — December 18, 2009 @ 5:18 am
100% agree on Kidney Shot and its need to be unique. They sort of had it right-ish with TBC in that it was on its own unique DR and cheap shot was the stun that clashed with the rest. I wish they would go back to that. Perhaps make it like a judgment that can’t be dodged/blocked/parried but can still miss if your hit is too low. I would think that’s fair, some people may disagree. I felt that back in S6 when prot-healing paladins had 30 second cooldown HoJs it was such a superior version of the same 6 second stun. It required zero setup and had range on it. Granted there are flaws with HoJ being a spell thing but even so it felt like they had it better. Considering you have to build up to the full 6 seconds when something like HoJ is 6 instant feels kind disappointing. As least the big 9k envenoms (when they do happen) feel like a FINISHING move. As it stands now Kidney doesn’t really ‘finish’ anything except other rogues due to the survival issues you already covered.
Comment by Mathris — December 18, 2009 @ 6:04 am
coldblood should be like the firemage talent, every whitehit increases the critical chance on styles until 5 stylecrits did hit
Comment by PEWW — December 18, 2009 @ 6:09 am
Yes…all of these ideas seem reasonable to me. Especially the parts about KS and our survivability. Rogues are no longer the “stun” class because every class in the game now has some sort of stun. KS needs to be special again and give something that lets others know that we would be wanted for stunning enemies in a group. (BG PvP)
Survivability for rogues is pathetic currently. We are glass cannons and go down faster than a warlock or mage. That needs some serious fixing. Some abilities to help us live through attacks that arent cooldown dependent would be nice.
Rogues do OKAY damage right now, but compared to every other class our damage is quite horrible. We can’t put out enough pressure on somebody to make them blow cooldowns. I see Ferals critting 7k shreds all the time when our backstab only does 3k crits on cloth.
Comment by Evolas — December 18, 2009 @ 7:08 am
Almost scared me with the post about your virus O_o PHEW *Wipes face clear of sweat*
The Cold Blood change is definitely a nice idea. You’re right – rogues already have high enough crit, so why is Cold Blood REALLY needed at this point? As for vanish…I just don’t think it will ever be fixed :p
Instant soulfire coming your way…
Comment by Anarchies — December 18, 2009 @ 7:35 am
Im totally agree with u man
CoS could also removes bleeds efects =DDDD
Comment by sodomon — December 18, 2009 @ 7:35 am
I can pretty much agree to what you said, the cloak thingy is actually something i have been thinking of for some time now, I didn’t think about making it usable while stunned i thought more like building the clos glyph into the ability itself.
This would even things against other melee classes.
The other thing about clos are those 10% chance to fail. No caster risks to cast something at you while in clos unless their spell has a realistic chance to hit.
If Blizzards concern is the PvE situation make Clos 90% + 10%(based on the targets level) this way raid bosses still will have a chance to own you and would make PvP less RNG.
Comment by Onne — December 18, 2009 @ 7:37 am
door punching/me having the bootleg copy > god-smack for making fun of that idiot who lost all their shit from 3 hard drives and quit.
Comment by Bsnaff — December 18, 2009 @ 7:46 am
Agree with everything, especially with making all trees useful for something, and I don’t see any problem with having one PvP tree one PvE tree and one kind of in the middle. As a warrior, for example, if you want to tank you go prot, if you want dps fury, PvP arms and that is completely normal, would anyone expect every tree to be equally viable in all situations? That is immposible, but unfortunately Blizzard said they intended to make all trees equally viable for both PvE and PvP which is, ofcourse, doomed from the start, and many classes, but I dare say rogues more than others, suffer from such policy.
Comment by Exelence — December 18, 2009 @ 8:17 am
Brilliant ideas!
I might be a noob.. but what if they made vanish do as mages mirror image, or hunters feign death, making the one targeting u, lose target?
and btw.. pls take your post to the public forum, maybe it will get som more major attention
Comment by Crymor — December 18, 2009 @ 8:29 am
I wouldn’t mind getting some passive regen in assisnation, like overkill just passive. Maybe add it to the talent tree after you fill out 40 points or something. If cold blood also gave us acrhistle tea or gave us a energy regen would help it, to avoided it being overly op make is so you can’t use right out of stealth
Comment by Atrarm — December 18, 2009 @ 9:20 am
Oh my god, I’m so glad that you didn’t lose your project, that would make me cryyy. Anyways good luck on the release;>
Comment by Marigan — December 18, 2009 @ 9:27 am
GIEV US PLATE!1!!11
Lol, kidding, but very nice ideas, CoS during stuns would be great. Good Luck for your movie
Comment by Faeriel — December 18, 2009 @ 11:23 am
PHEWWWWW… I’D KILL YOU AKRIOSSSSSSSS. Lol
But yea, I always agree with whatever you say, because your the rogue sensei. Cold blood really needs an upgrade. IMO they should add an additional effect that builds 5 combo points every time you use the ability, plus the original effect. Or lower the CD to only 1.4-2 min.
Agree with cloak of shadows as well. We need more of a Barskin type of ability. CoS needs to reduce around 10-20% damage (only) while stunned, and buff it to 100% resist for less RNG.
I actually stopped playing my rogue for my mage lately. Mostly because I got really bored. Hopefully they change some stuff in cataclysm, because I honestly loved playing my rogue.
Comment by coolstorybro — December 18, 2009 @ 11:42 am
Not only is warr dmg high for an MS effect.. their MS can’t be removed, like ours
Comment by Captain_Awesome — December 18, 2009 @ 12:07 pm
Or should I say “unlike ours”?, meh fuck it. You know what I mean
Comment by Captain_Awesome — December 18, 2009 @ 12:08 pm
Shadowstep should have the same effect as intervene too..
That would be the shit, so you could not only shadowstep enemy targets, but friendly too.. good to stop CC on team mate and good to get away from some dmg
Comment by Captain_Awesome — December 18, 2009 @ 12:10 pm
Hey, I think what they should do for Cold blood is atleast make it, so if you rupture with coldblood up, all the ticks of it will crit. ( and thats without 4p T8)
if you use it with Rupture all the rupture ticks will Crit.
Comment by Zice — December 18, 2009 @ 12:13 pm
I agree in many parts with you. Imo subtetly needs the old playstyle back, yes, I’m talking about shs. Shadowstep needs to remove roots again and they need to somehow buff hemo.
Comment by Maderum — December 18, 2009 @ 12:33 pm
While i would like to see rogue damage being bumped up I think that sooner or later it would lead to the nerf of our stuns, and as im sure you know in most situations those stuns are the only thing keeping up from being a cat in a microwave. Also about fixing rogue vanish, i feel the impending nerf that comes with it could be quite large. Now as for the bit about cloaking during stuns and ks being what it used to be i agree.
Comment by Carni — December 18, 2009 @ 1:44 pm
I dont want to go back to hemo tbh. Shadowstep however shd need a buff as it wouldnt rlly make sub any superior by doing it. Removing snares/slows. In addition i feel backstab is a little too weak these days and spamming hemo is just not the playstyle i want back, ambush is fine in my view. Except for that i feel like its kinda hard w/o deadly brew to sit on a target, poison cleansing teams just totally shits on sub rogues and will leave u spamming shiv spending all your energy on doing nothing but trying to keep on ur target.
Comment by Deliwio — December 18, 2009 @ 2:02 pm
btw. i like the idea of making shadowstep usable on friendly targets as well. Removing the energy cost would be cool as well, but that might be too much asking for.
Comment by Deliwio — December 18, 2009 @ 2:05 pm
backstab definetly need a buff..its a pain to be behind a targe all time.U get less dmg for harder play stile compared to mutilate.Btw great ideas mentioned above,especialy Shadowstep usable on friendly targets.that would definitly give some survaivibilty in grp.
Comment by Bloodmaster — December 18, 2009 @ 2:42 pm
I’ve been thinking of that cloak change for the last 6 months.
Now this next one might sound stupid, but as for burst, maybe something like:
When the rogue is >100 energy, 10% damage on all special attacks.
It would increase the benefit from energy pooling, but not make it over the top, as it may only be once every 10 seconds.
There is also reverting the mutilate change from 20% > 50% and then Deadly brew, somewhere low tier as it is needed for all specs. Possibly as compensation for reverting mutilate from 20% > 50%, they would need to bring back in positioning, which I am in favour for, yes Mutilate was great in WotLK but I honestly miss it from BC and which I had played it more. The positioning would make it more difficult and so balancing out the increase, but it would make it alot more fun again.
As for Subtlety.. Reduce the Shadowstep cooldown to 15 seconds (Like Charge and feral charge) Reduce the 20% bonus to 10% and take away the energy cost.
A talent where Blind can’t miss, just to stop the stupid RNG. It can still be immuned, but it can’t miss. (Or that should just be implemented without talents.)
Shadowdance should be used more as a utility than a burst in my opinion, and as such, when under the influence, all control abilities that require steal(Sap, CS, Garrote) – reason being if not stealth KS would be 15 energy, relentless strikes would just regain 10 extra energy – will take 10 less energy.
Hemorrhage needs an increase in the Physical damage debuff area, maybe make it a percent. (Increases physical damage taken by 3%) with one of the talents to increase it to 5 / 7 / 10.
I’d like to see the reduction of poison procs. Many would complain, but I would actually like to see Shiv have a use again. There is no point currently using it when in 1 auto attack, you’ve applied it. 50% Proc rate is just stupid. I prefer the old 20-40% and a need for shiv, it gives back a change in the playstyle.
/shrug thats my 2 cents.
Comment by Protege — December 18, 2009 @ 2:59 pm
Oh and I just thought of it.
Tricks of the trade talent in subtlety, can now remove CC on the targeted friendly player. (30 second cooldown makes it not overpowered, bring back rogue utility and makes us a wanted class again)
Comment by Protege — December 18, 2009 @ 3:01 pm
** In rogue rogue 2v2 though, that might make things a bit overpowered, but it forces the other team to supply a bit more CC or be able to outheal / outlast. They can’t just CC one and instagib the other. Because they’re actually able to support each other now. And maybe not every type of CC, maybe only some type. But you get the idea.
Comment by Protege — December 18, 2009 @ 3:03 pm
Bloodmaster, as for the different between Mutilate and Backstab damage, Mutilate is a 41 point talent, you somewhat hope it would be more damage compared to Backstab.
Comment by Protege — December 18, 2009 @ 3:08 pm
I think you’re 2nd hard drive just made up for the money that you spent on it haha.
Comment by Ultorskoss — December 18, 2009 @ 3:28 pm
“Not Only Can we not Kill Healers Alone, We Can’t Even Come close”: trying to kill healers as a rogue is like bashing your head in to a brick wall. They’re all laughable. It’s almost imposable to kill a resto druid or holy pali as a rogue. Any time a pali comes around in a 1vX situation I just say screw it and give up. I refuse to duel holy palis and resto druids because of how imposable they are to beat.
“Make All of Our Trees Viable for Something”: yea, at least make sdance playable in arena.
Comment by sarrik — December 18, 2009 @ 4:47 pm
Hey I compltely agree with all of this makes total sense good stuff akrios craving ur video cant wait !!
Comment by Jake — December 18, 2009 @ 6:26 pm
Hey Akrios i was wondering ur choice of weps and gems as a rogue pvp, and PVE tooand why do u use pve gear with pvp in ur videos so curious!
Comment by Vacc — December 18, 2009 @ 6:27 pm
The idea I liked for cold blood was to have it reactivate Overkill. That way we can have Vanish and CB work as PvE “blow your cooldowns”, and it would ad marginal damage in a PvP environment too. Either that or make it activate a 20% poison damage increase for 20 seconds or something similar to Overkill. This would be nice for burn phases as well, since that usually entails Heroism for the extra DP procs, and the energy regen from vanish>overkill allows for more frequent mutilates — also more poison procs from the slow MH.
Comment by Keplar — December 18, 2009 @ 6:35 pm
Hey i have a quick question, I have the original Unit Frames like you with the moveanything addon, but when i use it and i scroll over a piece of gear the stats box gets stuck on my screen. Now when i disable this and i enable Xperls or somthing this stops happening. any suggestions?
Comment by PrettySneaky — December 18, 2009 @ 7:48 pm
And i also love alll your ideas on this next expansion, lets pray they happen
Comment by PrettySneaky — December 18, 2009 @ 8:30 pm
I’ve been trying to think of something to help us against stuns as well, your Cloak idea sounds pretty good. And seriously they need to just make Cloak 100% immunity or buff it somehow b/c getting hit by spells with this is a pain in the ass. Ive literally used cloak of shadows and then been hit by a Chaosbolt flying towards me.
I was thinking of having an ability like a buff you can use for stuns. Called “fake” or “deception’ perhaps, and during a stun you can basically use this ability to get out of it and maybe it can apply a disarm or short incapacitate or stun to your target. Just a general idea atm, havnt thought it out completely yet.
Comment by Twizzy — December 19, 2009 @ 1:34 am
I’ve always thought that since the mutilate nerf rogues actually take some ammount of skill to play, but it sounds to me as if every rogue here just want their class to become as easy and retarded as maybe a feral druid or a prenerf destro lock? You want every spec to be viable for something in arena and make you benefit from talents that were put deep into a spec for a reason, can’t you see that all specs are viable to some level and just requires a whole different skill level to be successful at it, but fine, if you want rogues to be another one of those “rofl noob l2p go roll a real class you faceroll cunt” classes then fine for me, i can aggree on the survivability issue but i dont think you need to be buffed through the roof for burst that isn’t needed except when it comes to killing a healer.. why not nerf healers instead of buffing the whole thing making the whole pvp balance issue even worse.. because this is beginning to sound alot like world of roguecraft.. I USED TO BE ABLE TO BEAT EVERYONE! NOW I CANT KILL ANYONE!? WE’RE THE MOST NERFED CLASS IN THE GAME! but if you want people to look at you as they look on feral druids then fine, lose your last ammount of pride ^^
Comment by Cruxe — December 19, 2009 @ 2:33 am
And Protege got some really nice ideas except the CC dispell one, it should be more like, dispells a magical effect, so it wont be like having 4 trinkets in 1 arena fight, giving you the upper hand on everything, but all other ideas were actually really good (:
Comment by Cruxe — December 19, 2009 @ 2:36 am
Or maybe like, shortens the duration of an inc CC, so you will need some attention and ability to predict an inc CC instead of just spaming it as soon as you see your arena partner getting polymorphed, so you can shorten the duration by 50% or something, since there are ALOT of trashdebuffs..
Comment by Cruxe — December 19, 2009 @ 2:39 am
I agree the survival ability is shit sry for language but imo i do want more from blizzard rather getting smoldered while all other classes recives buffs.As you said Ks should be our signature move well it been around for an long time and it shouldnt be that Low.Once again as you said Deep frezze maim etc all is stronger stuns and we gotta sacrifice our trink :S that sucks.
Comment by Pheq — December 19, 2009 @ 6:01 am
I remember talking to my rogue partner about vanish being usable while stunned being a possible solution to rogue survivability. He seemed to be under the impression it would be wildly overpowered… clos probably is a better idea, I would tend to agree.
Comment by Kolz — December 19, 2009 @ 8:06 am
Protege…it is just logic that muti do more dmg bcos its 41 talent point..buffig backstab does not means it have to be buffed with dmg.It can for example stun target for 1 sec if its a criticar strike wich would give us enough time for applaing another crippling or help with interupting spellcast without making it OP
Comment by Bloodmaster — December 19, 2009 @ 9:01 am
or if buff backstab with dmg…let it be a 51 point of sub three :p
Comment by Bloodmaster — December 19, 2009 @ 9:05 am
more than makin CoS usable while stunnd, make a talent that brings us the ability to break stuns like a paladin
Comment by C — December 19, 2009 @ 4:44 pm
phew man close call, sorry for that
.. i could have imagned your pain if you lost it…. any way regarding the updates needed totaly agree, cold blood is a thing i thought needing adressing since wotlk came out.
Comment by :) — December 20, 2009 @ 11:11 am
i love being underpowered in a wierd sort of way. it gives me a sense of pride knowing that if a ret tried to play a rogue he would fail miserably. rogues right now are the definition of skill. anyone who has a high rating in 2s or 3s gets a certain level of respect thats higher than of a pally or dk at the same lvl. that being said, our abilities need to work. vanish being fixed is a must. period. our survivability is based on our skill of not getting caught in the stun, or the fear. i do think this new envemon spec is rediculous and that rogues should be reverted back to our original burst and big crits instead of straight dmg. fix us, but dont make us overpowered. i thoroughly enjoy beating dks who are 2500, and knowing they would be at 1800 if they played a rogue
Comment by Uschearak — December 20, 2009 @ 12:13 pm
hang on and give us a nice christmas present =)
Comment by Azaela — December 20, 2009 @ 12:53 pm
So I just made this huge long post about all the changes I felt should be made, but I forgot to put in my email and it got eaten. So here’s some of the abilities I feel thould be changed:
Cold Blood adds 5 combo points to the target and treats the target as if it had 5 stacks of DP for Envenom.
Shadowstep now has a 1 minute cooldown and 20 yard range, and can be used at allies. If used at an enemy, it will cause both of the rogue’s poisons to be applied, and if used at an ally will remove a stun effect.
Shadow Dance is moved to 41 points Subtlety and reduces the cooldown of ShS by 30 seconds, allows ShS to be used while rooted, and increases the range by 10 yards in addition to its current effects.
The new 51 point Subtlety talent is an ability with a 2 minute cooldown that converts all damage caused by the rogue into Shadow damage for the 20 second duration.
Cloak of Shadows is a 100% spell hit reduction, and reduces physical damage taken by 40%. The glyph now makes it usable while stunned.
Overkill is now an active ability with a 1 minute cooldown. When used, it restores 100% of your maximum energy. While off cooldown, your energy regeneration is increased by 10%. Using vanish resets the cooldown on this ability.
The change to Deadly Poison in 3.3 is reverted and Deadly Brew is moved to Vile Poisons’ place on the talent tree. Deadly Brew now causes your Instant Poison to apply stacks of Deadly Poison and increases the damage caused by Envenom by 10%, in addition to its current effects.
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These changes should greatly boost the ability of Sub rogues to deal with plate and the ability of mutilate rogues to change targets, while increasing survivability, mobility, and utility: the three areas where rogues are incredibly lacking in relation to other classes.
Comment by Failure — December 20, 2009 @ 1:29 pm
Failure, those are some great ideas! The overkill CD being reset every vanish might be a bit OP. Think about how insanely stronger your opener would be, maybe just leave that part out of the ability.
Comment by Twizzy — December 20, 2009 @ 3:02 pm
Failure, that CB applies Combo points is just retarded. Think about it, an instant cast 9k zerg regardless of armor, with no pre-requisites. It’s rediculously overpowered.
Shadowstep removing stuns? Where is the logic in that? My tricks of the trade idea only applying to stuns to remove only stuns would be more logical and reasonable.
As for your shadowdance change, they could just revert it to how it used to be…
Shadow damage for a 51 talent point? And what happens when someone uses Cloak of Shadows or any other reduces magical damage ability. It’s more a nerf than a buff.
Cloak of shadows 100% seems good but it does make it too overpowered.
Overkill buff would be rediculous. Mutilate Mutilate Eviscerate Overkill Mutilate Mutilate Eviscerate.
Deadly Brew change, I’m not even going to bother.
Comment by Protege — December 20, 2009 @ 3:42 pm
@Failure:
Some of your points could be interesting, but many are pointless and just don’t fit with the rogue’s class spirit. For instance, ShS that removes stuns is just not right (and I am polite).
I don’t think overkill can be what you describe. It’s good as a passive ability, rogues already have many useful cooldown – which is both an advantage and a drawback.
I think, however, that your idea about shadow damage in the sub tree deserves some interest. First, rogues still have some trouble against plate wearers, adding some magical damage would be, in certain situations, a noticable buff. Second, you might say “come on, rogues don’t use mana, they are a physical class, not a magical one, this shadow damage is just dumb”. While I think there is some truth in that, rogues already have magical features, for instance shadowstep (the teleportation is not physical but kinda magical) or cloak of shadow (Warning Spoiler: rogues don’t wear an actual dark cloak to protect them when they use this ability), so that could be justified, and inspired from some of the DK’s talents which add magical damage to their physical damage. We could have the Sub tree with shadow damage (not always – this damage should remain exceptional and not a default feature), and the Assasination tree with poison damage.
@Akrios
-I totally agree that KS is and should be our core defining ability. With the opener CS, there are the abilities that made me love the rogue class in the first place. Their sound is amazing, and each time you use them, regardless of the situation, you feel some satisfaction and enjoy your class. The Imp. KS is too weak, they can buff it. Also, make KS less avoidable.
-While rogues need some defensive skills, we have to be careful with such things, cause a rogues with more armor etc. could also mean a loss of burst or a nerf of some other abilities like stuns. Still, I think that the Dodge stat should have more effect on the rogue, like a reduced chance of being hit while stunned, things like that. I also think that rogues should be able to dodge from behind (at least a percent of the dodge chance); it’s not absurd, as we can easily imagine that they have a special perception that allows them so see attacks even from behind. I think such “little” buffs could help us.
Comment by baruch — December 20, 2009 @ 4:15 pm
Cloak of shadows should be 100% imo , getting cced or even killed through it isnt fun at all,well , maybe it is to non-rogue players. I don’t see why they persist on not making cloak 100% and giving other players 10% chance to change outcome of the fight to their advantage, not to mention vanish reliability. Also, I agree clos should be use able while stunned , and i think deadened nerves should swap places with improved sinister strike.
Comment by thekinslayer — December 20, 2009 @ 4:22 pm
What, no shoutout for helping you fix your computer? I wants shoutout!!
Comment by ANt — December 20, 2009 @ 4:33 pm
Very-well weighted wishlist I must say. You are not asking for god-modes while you point on obvious gaps of our class.
I want to see Sub-tree more about Sub than it is. Sub-rogue should be shadowdancer for real – elusive, stealthy and deadly. I would say that if no massive revamp would be in place than following should be done:
ShS – reduce CD to 8 sec. Add dodge and resist component. Remove damage component.
ImpCamo – eliminate speed penalty entirely. Put this talent past 6-7 tier to ensure only Sub-rogues get it.
XXX – something to counter to CC would be nice. But I am afraid to think of smth as it may turn into OP-ability thinking.
Comment by Elgrey — December 21, 2009 @ 12:21 am
There are some rly nice ideas. I rly liked CoS one and Proteges idea of ToT removing CCs from ur partner when talented in deep sub, maybe it would need longer CD like 1min or more when used as “PvP trinket” on partner.
I was thinking about hemmo being also stackable debuff similar to Spriest’s shadow weawing, but on physical. Or not that strong…lets say like 5% max 1% per each stack and to be applyed to all dmg so double dps teams such as R/M could be more viable once again. Just idea…
Also sub daggers is now like being masochist right now, compared to mut. Mut being positional and increasing its DMG once again is very nice idea IMO, blizz should try this out.
Comment by Hitmaster — December 21, 2009 @ 4:39 am
Elgrey, ShS 8 seconds is just fucking rediculous. Oh you got away ShS. Oh in 4 seconds you have managed to put a slow on me. 6 seconds you’ve got out of my range, guess what? SHADOWSTEP LETS GET THIS PARTY ROLLIN AGAIN.
Comment by Protege — December 21, 2009 @ 5:32 pm
What about a life leaching affect added to our poisons? like everytime wound procs or DP ticks we get healed the amount of dmg that the poison proc’d for.then if you start getting low and your arena partner is cc’d we can spam the shitt out of shiv to proc wound and keep alive while the op dk or pally or whatever it may be is making an attempt to rape you, u could stay alive long enough for your partner to pop out of the cc. I’am tired of looking down at my action bar after i have already blown my cloak and my partner is eating some cc’s while i’am going “Hmmmmm wheres my blink, barkskin, icebound fortitude, pain supression, bubble,shield wall, oh right, i dont have anything like that duh, lets try a vanish, FUUUUUUCK my bad forgot that never works” lol.I mean pretty much every singe class has some sort of healing while in combat mechanism these days, why can’t we have one? Using this affect would also take skill to apply efficiently in pvp combat which should not make it any way “OP”. Anyway just and idea i thought of real quick while checking out these posts, and i apologize for the poor grammer.
Comment by creed — December 21, 2009 @ 7:18 pm
Also maybey a second cos like ability that instantly removes dot’s but without the duration spell immunity that cos offers. I mean we got 2 vanishes and 1 cos, that’s about as insuficient as vanish itself atm.
Comment by creed — December 21, 2009 @ 7:23 pm
Yep, agreed. Making CloS usable while stunned would be pretty awesome. Many have touched that subject before, let’s just hope Blizzard listens.
Comment by Revolution — December 22, 2009 @ 10:55 am
So you want CloS while stunned, undodgeable/unbreakable by anything but a trinket KS and a CB that buffs damage in addition to its 100% crit.
You’re a retard
Comment by skrunkz — December 23, 2009 @ 12:35 am
Feel free to consider me a troll or anything, but i have to critisize your point a bit.
“Rogues are one of the most often focused classes in the game.”
-sorry man but have you tried…say, playing a warlock?
“we cannot break cc in any way other than with trinket.”
-again,sorry man, but have you tried playing a warlock?
“During this time, the defenses of dodge or cloak of shadows are meaningless. It would be a big help and put greater control into our hands if we were able to defend ourselves during stuns without the requiem of a PvP trinket.”
-give me evasion and CoS and you can have 5 pvp trinkets my friend.
p.s. let me hear it about demonic circle cause i know there’s gona be stuff said about it but hey, once again, cant use it while cc’d eh?
Comment by Xenocid — December 23, 2009 @ 10:00 am
I agree with almost everything you said. I feel that rogues deserve a good revamp (if you will) and have us be able to compete with other classes and not just have intense burst damage. (This one is a bit out of order but oh well.)
I believe Blizzard understands the problem with vanish and will most likely have it fixed by the time Cataclysm hits.
Survivability is more or so likely to be becoming more serious when Cataclysm comes around. They are removing a lot of the junk that they have added into the game over the years and are going back to (more or so less of) the original set up. I’m going to be excited to see what actually turns out and I hope it completely changes (or reverts) the way PvP and PvE are played.
Kidney Shot being our class defining ability? I disagree with you there. I believe that Back Stab should be the rogues signature ability. Although the suggestions for Kidney Shot you suggested sound fantastic! I would love to go back and hear people say, “FREAKIN KIDNEY SHOT!”. So WoW definate stun, yes, class defining ability, no. (Why would a boss in an instance be affected by a kidney shot?)
Trees viable? The rogue trees at the moment do not suck (except sub of coarse) but when Assassination is the tree that handles both PvP and PvE to be the best indefinably then there is a serious issue and makes the rogue class a lot more boring to play (in my opinion).
FINALLY someone else complained about Cold Blood. I think that maybe it should turn into a passive ability that comes up with a certain percent like other abilities (in comparison to rampage for warriors) and also perhaps a slow effect. Thinking about what I just said I think it may make our class “over powered” but I still think it sounds good.)
Comment by Zendo — December 24, 2009 @ 11:42 am
I made a suggestion on the EU forum that the combat tree could be made a tanking tree – people dont seem to like it but I think it would fit the class nicely – assa for raid dps, combat for tanking and some dps, sub for pvp – clearly outlined trees, instead of three trees of the same, and nothing at all
Comment by Akhan — December 25, 2009 @ 5:03 am
Omg no! Rogues are not tanks! Where the hell did you get this idea from? I think its totally stupid.
Its not cus rogues aint the only stunning class these days that u even have to make us tanks. Vanilla wow baby, vanilla wow.
Comment by Ares — December 26, 2009 @ 5:12 am
How about we get an immunity to stun for like 10 seconds or something like a dk? or get a buff which has a 2-3min cooldown where we are immune to the next stun. Another idea for survivability is to have a cheat death type of move where if an attack does more than 20-25% of our entire life it is negated but can only happen once per min or 2. (im not saying we get all of these just one would be more than enough.)
Comment by Slyther — December 26, 2009 @ 11:19 am
uhm .. some dude said bout throwing some gas cloud to target that slows castings and melee that seems nice, could be throwing some gas cloud around u making same effect on a X radious of the rogue …. it could be like mind numb poison but in range >< and a melee haste nerf too. And adds a sneaky ways to a seneaky class
and i was thinking on some hp recovery like many classes have .. somthng like:
Evasion-Increases the rogue's dodge chance by 50% and reduces the chance ranged attacks hit the rogue by 25%. It also regenerates the rogue's life equal to 10% of the damage dodged.
love ur site man, vry educational ^^ !! /cheers
Comment by yomero — December 29, 2009 @ 10:42 pm
Imo Shadow dance is very viable. I’m playing with imp gouge and versus cloth teams we usually rock face, and versus plate teams Im playing this annoying guy whos CCing the DPS the entire game whilst pushing out only a little damage to the focused target. Because…Shadow Priests rock face. SP/ShD at 2.3 atm.
Versus plate teams my mate usually goes versus the DPS ALONE, with only a little assistance from me. I’m hugging their healer and totally limiting them of their every move.
Sap > Blind > CHeap Shot KS, Gouges, fears, disarm fear, kicks etc.. usually works. I don’t push out any pressure versus the CC target, only doing everything to prevent him from healing. SP tend to rock face and soloing any time of plate hasnt been much of a trouble.
Comment by lawler — December 30, 2009 @ 10:32 pm
How about Cold Blood simply refunds the Energy cost of the move it modifies ? So a Cold Blood Evis refunds 35, or Cold Blood Mutilate refunds 60.
Comment by Haeze — May 6, 2010 @ 2:57 am
I like the idea of cloak while stunned, but the only thing is that it would really screw over frost mages with thier deep freeze. They would be pretty pissed when rogues started resisting all their crits.
Comment by Regurge — May 14, 2010 @ 1:42 pm
Not sure if anyone else posted this, so sorry if I am stepping on toes, but I would like to see some improvements in Relentless Strikes. Make it a 2 point talent with wording that every cp gives a 10%/20% chance to restore 25 energy. Imagine what you could do with those extra 3 talent points! It gives us more options, without being too OP. Other people have posted ideas similar to this, but I would also like to see a talent, on a 5 minute cooldown (refreshable with prep), that automatically applies 5 cp’s to the target. Make it about as far down in a talent tree as CB. Or they could make it a proc talent. The wording would be something like: “your Evis and Envenom abilities will no longer use up your current cp’s. This effect can not occur more than once per minute.” and make it an end-tree talent. OK, that might be a little OP! hehe
Comment by Khirsah — May 18, 2010 @ 1:19 am
Sorry. Above should have read: refreshable with prep GLYPH. not just prep by itself. A few other ideas, and sorry again of these are repeats: Change the poison system back to how it used to be. Buy or find the mats and make em yourself. Improve on the old system by having levels of poison maker. For example, you could become an “Artisan Poison Maker” or whatever, and your poisons last for 2 hours. At the highest level of Poison Maker, you could learn how to make Deadly Brew. Make it available through a rogue only quest, and eliminate the talent. Also, Improved KS is way to low in the talent tree, or else it is in the wrong tree altogether. It would be great where it is, except most bosses are immune to stuns. Therefore, it is most useful as a PvP talent. You gotta get deep into the assassination tree for a PvP talent. It should either be higher in the tree, or in Sub (which was supposed to be the PvP tree.) have a Glyph of KS which increases its duration by 2 secs. Have the Precision talent also improve expertise rating by 1/2/3/4/5%. Improve shadowdance by making the rogue immune to fear, stun, and any other movement impairing effect for the duration. However, if you are already stunned or feared, you can not use it to break free. It doesn’t replace a trinket. Go back to a stacked wound poison system, with up to 3 stacks at a 20/40/60% reduced healing effect. Mind numbing should be a stacked poison as well. Obviously, since they will be stacked, the highest stack level should be higher than the current one stack level. Have an Improved Shiv talent that gives a 33/66/100% chance to have Shiv apply an extra stack of your OH poison. This is great for the stacked poisons, but a shiv with a 2 proc of instant would be a pretty hard hit. I guess that’s it for now.
Comment by Khirsah — May 18, 2010 @ 3:03 am