Rogue
Vanish: For the first half second after this ability is used, neither Vanish nor Stealth can be broken by taking damage or being the victim of a hostile spell or ability.(Change Reverted)
First I’m going to say I find it kind of ironic that even a vanish fix ends up breaking vanish:
Blizzard performs vanish fix
Rogues gain working vanish
Rogues gain stealth
..
Stealth fades from rogues
Working Vanish fades from rogues
Sorry, sorry, bad joke for these dire times… I know.
But really, it’s not the end of the world. It seems like Blizzard wanted to fix vanish, but after 3 years of it being broken they still have no clue how without making us overpowered. I mean the only problems with vanish is that when instants happen at the same time vanish and the instant cancel out, and when instant happen 0.1 ish after vanish the instant goes through and breaks vanish as though it never occurred. The immunity was not necessary, those are the only problems that really need fixing, but for some reason blizzard can’t seem to do that.
On the bright side, it’s not like rogues are bad right now and it’s not like without a working vanish anything will change, it just means we will stay in our current state. It also means we won’t receive whatever nerf was coming with the vanish fix. It would have been nice to not have vanish bug, but the fix really made vanish a bit too easy to use. Vanishing between dot ticks and making this terrible ability work is one of the few things that can really differentiate rogues in terms of skill, and 0.5 seconds was still a huge window to get a reopener.
Now with that said, let’s hope that this isn’t the end of Blizzard’s plans for vanish. All we really want is for it not to bug out in the ways listed above, so if they can do that I think I’d be content. I’m sure people will disagree with me but I’m not all that upset about this reversion. As much as it pains me to say this, it’s better they fix it right than fix it wrong.
At least they removed frozen core giving reduced cast speed to already borderline overpowered mages:
Mage
Frost
- Frozen Core no longer causes your Ice Lance criticals to reduce the cast time of your next Frostbolt or Frostfire Bolt
This was necessary and I’m glad it happened before the patch came out, even if it does nerf our most popular comp in rmp.
Update
Here’s GC’s reply to things. At least it seems Blue understands the situation…I think. Maybe. And I agree with the aoe part. But the whole “no promises” rhetoric is getting kind of old. Kind of 3 years old.
We’re not happy with the current Vanish fix on the PTR.
Even at 0.5 seconds, the rogue sometimes gets hit by a missile already in flight. Yet, even at 0.5 sec it’s too easy to screw up using AOE to break the stealth, which is a totally legit counter in our minds. Therefore, making the immunity longer or shorter causes other problems. As I said earlier, the attempt was *not* to make Vanish into Cloak of Shadows Jr. We’re not trying to offer a big PvP buff to rogues. We just want the ability to work as advertised. The intent of the 1 sec (then 0.5 sec) immunity was to provide a little padding so that the ability didn’t fail in situations where it is supposed to succeed. I’m not sure it’s doing that though, and it’s causing other problems.
The way we want it to work: If you Vanish after a single targeted spell is cast, you’re safe, even if the missile is still in the air. If an AE spell is cast on you, even if you just went into stealth, it should break you out.
We’re working on a hopefully better fix now where we record the time that a missile leaves the caster and compare that to when the Vanish is activated. There still might be edge cases though that this doesn’t fix, if for example the cast and the Vanish happen very close together and someone’s client isn’t updated quickly enough. TLDR: It’s complicated.
For perspective, in patch 2.4 prior to LK, Vanish was more reliable in the situation I’m talking about above: used after a spell was cast would make you immune to the spell. It had some other bugs at the time, but all of those that we know about have been fixed. We have made many changes to the way spells work in the 3.X cycle, and one of them made the situation bad again. We need to get the conflict between missile travel time and Vanish resolved the way it used to work. The bad news is that since this is a code fix, it might not make it into 3.3. The good news is that because it is likely a server fix, it doesn’t need to wait for a major patch.
I’m also going to stamp this with “no promises” since unreasonable players may start complaining if Vanish isn’t fixed in exactly one week from now.
P.S. I used the word “spells” a lot above because to a developer, everything you do in WoW, even a melee attack, is a “spell.” It isn’t necessarily confined to what players think of as spells, such as Fireball.
Related posts:
It’s not the end of the world imo. I don’t think a 0.5 sec immunity would have made rogues overpowered but oh well .. we will just have to see how things turn out later on.
Comment by Ellerdian-EU — October 23, 2009 @ 9:43 pm
the 0.5 fix vas pretty useless on Ptr , vanish was breaking as much as on live with an average of 200ms~
Comment by EssentheyMy — October 23, 2009 @ 10:06 pm
I don’t get why they don’t make you immune to single target spells for 1 second after vanish and not any immunity to AoE spell though.
Comment by Zuggie — October 23, 2009 @ 11:05 pm
yo akrios, glad to see this site still up and running. I see that you’re still the only one posting haha. Tell peeps I said Hi.
Comment by Bullfury — October 24, 2009 @ 12:04 am
lol. The ironic part is, the instant invisible for mages is working allmost like vanish should, though vanish is far from it and Blizz can’t seem to find a fix.
If you get sapped/blinded while going invis, you will be sapped/blinded, but you’ll also be invisible to other players.
That’s my idea of a working vanish, if things happen simultaniously both should have an effect, i.e. being sapped while in vanish. The only problem is that simultaniousness is hard to define with latencies and such.
Comment by Carpedies — October 24, 2009 @ 12:40 am
good for me.. i really don’t like at all the 0.5 inmunity. vanishing between dots is one of the few things that can make a difference between you and him. so lets continue vanishing between dots and vanish-prep-vanish-fail-death against hunters and others.
pd: do not post anymore akrios! focus on your video! we want it soon!
Comment by mopar — October 24, 2009 @ 3:10 am
Hello Akrios and other friends of deadly shoadows,
personnaly, I don’t know why vanish is fixed cause with the 0,5sec it will be soooo easy to vanish/cc an opponent… Vanish is a strong ability, reseting a fight or beeing able to move normally, with this “little” immunity, I’m sure we’ll see f*** naabs and every rogue vanishing/cc with full dots on them without regarding the ticks. Why the hell does Blizzard wants to fucking make this game easier for this easier for that… Let’s have some fucking balls and tell all the naabs complaining to go training . I mean WTF, a standart rogue can already beat you if no trinket I don’t see why we give more power to them, especially if it does not change anything for those who train hard to vanish/cc…
Really i’m annoyed by all this “for-casuals shit” fixing bugs all the time.
Thanks for listening.
Xtazic- Cho’gall / EU .
Comment by Xtazic — October 24, 2009 @ 3:28 am
It’s not making it easier for people, it’s making an ability work as it is supposed to. And as for the “they can beat me if my trink is down”, are you talking 1v1? Because wow pvp isn’t based on 1v1. I don’t know why they’re reverting the change. They say it’s because you could aoe and not break stealth, but i’ve played a warr on the ptr and I shouted rogues out countless times even with that .5 sec immunity.
Comment by omega — October 24, 2009 @ 6:44 am
Hmm, interesting. When I saw the “(Change reverted)” I thought thye meant they were moving the immunity back up to 1 sec; which was a lot better to cause vanish not to break imo, but it also made it so you couldn’t get cuaght out with AoEs and such. But like you said, it is not the end of the world.
I still hope they give rogue SOMETHING in this patch. Through this expansion we have gotten nothing but “fixes” to broken abilities and mutilate nerfs. I seriously hope Blizzard has something in store for Rogues concerning the sub tree in patch 3.3, since this will most likely be the last major content patch we receive before Cataclysm.
Comment by Evolas — October 24, 2009 @ 8:19 am
If an AE spell is cast on you, even if you just went into stealth, it should break you out.
I don’t agree with it, we rely for our switches to vanish -> cs and a good warrior will just shout/howl you out of vanish the seconds they notice it, also cone of cold for mages, or blizzard, rendering the ability useless. The .5 sec immunity for stealth was a good change
Comment by MadiM — October 24, 2009 @ 10:58 am
Hi, i wanna quick explain why vanish fix with vanish granting an immunity will never work. It’s simple as that, vanish breaks when for example someone kidney shot your vanish by pressing it before u, but before this information goes from his Wow client, through server to you, u perform vanish, so server had information about him KSing faster but havent sendt info about it to you yet. I dont know if u cant understand my bad english, anyway you are loosing cooldown because u performed it but for real u vanished AFTER ks (First one wins, simple). So even if u will have immunity you will be already Kidney shotted in this situation. If vanish would also REMOVE all effects from u it might work, but it would also work like OP pvp trinket.
This problem affects all spells, not only vanish (its just most annoying in this case), and propably it cannot be solved.
Banned
Comment by Bannedyo — October 24, 2009 @ 3:17 pm
Perhaps if they changed the vanish effect into one where we switched planes momentarily that could work? Similar to the ghostfish effect?
Comment by Spitt — October 24, 2009 @ 8:16 pm
If there’s really no way to fix vanish, why not give it a compensation, like a temporary buff to movement speed, or a damage reduction, or whatever?
P.S.
Akrios, RELEASE that video. God damn.
Comment by baruch — October 25, 2009 @ 2:07 am
ye right, didnt think the change would last anyways.
Comment by Deliwio — October 25, 2009 @ 8:03 am
Unfixed vanish will stay like that, they couldn’t fix it before they can’t fix it now. WoW PvP isn’t based on duels or 1v1’s which is why you don’t get an achievement or anything from it because blizzard knows the imbalanced issues. For vanish, had a feeling it still wouldn’t work, but you cant compare it to invis because it puts you in a diffrent plane yea but the mili-second that a dot lands just as you go invis it’ll break almost like it never happened, for vanish your able to vanish some spells. I’d rather have vanish then a invis copycat. Ussually you use vanish to save yourself or swap for a kill, yea sometimes its unreliable but youll still get the overkill buff and such. Well at least they attempted something, I doubt it’ll ever work with the game mechanics. On to RNG CoS~
Eviscerate X. Go~
Comment by Trix — October 25, 2009 @ 1:57 pm
[...] posted his reaction to the reverting of the Vanish “fix” and a in depth article on rogue energy management. [...]
Pingback by Community Watch- Rogue Weekly :: Rogue and PvP News — October 26, 2009 @ 5:34 am
There is actually a buff u get from vanish, it’s called overkill haha. And there is a minor glyph that increases your movement speed after u vanish for a short time, so whoever complained about vanish not giving you a buff, you are wrong
Comment by jack — October 26, 2009 @ 10:22 am
Funny how it seems that now that we are pretty sure that vanish will not get fixed, people seem to think that this ability is fine after all.
Really, Blizzard did a great job; their skill in manipulating people is amazing: make a messed up ability overpowered on test realms, wait several weeks, then remove the op buff and watch the community say “oh yeah on test realms it’s way op’ed, let’s go back to our old unreliable ability, we were so dumb that we didn’t notice how lucky we were to have it that way in fact”.
Come on guys, the rogue community has complained for like 4 years about this messed up ability, an ability which, when it fails due to shity server or latency stuff, can make you lose a rated arena match against top players… and now you say that it’s alright?
What about the buff… speed bonus? Yay, so op. Overkill? Remember how this buff has been nerfed to death?
That is not serious.
Make vanish generate 500 gold when it fails, and I shall stop complaining about it.
Kind regards,
baruch
Comment by baruch — October 26, 2009 @ 12:15 pm
The speed bonus from the glyph doesn’t give you a seperate buff that increases speed. It increases speed while you have the vanish buff. So getting vanish broken would mean you lose the speed bonus.
Comment by omega — October 27, 2009 @ 5:54 am
Will of the Forsaken now shares a 45-second cooldown with similar effects, including the Medallion of the Horde, Titan-Forged runes, Insignia of the Horde, etc.
end of the world imo
Comment by Ktperry — October 27, 2009 @ 4:40 pm
DOOD WOTF NERF FTL
Comment by Kuz — October 27, 2009 @ 5:22 pm
nerf wotf more ffs
Comment by Ohnoez — October 27, 2009 @ 10:03 pm
Ya baruch, what i said about the buff was in response to a previous comment about a person wanted a speed buff after vanish, and i was just clarifying that vanish does give you a buff. I agree that overkill has been nerfed to hell and that the speed buff is nothing special.
Comment by jack — October 28, 2009 @ 4:21 am
Akrios great job on the site, you’re on top all important fixes to classes and spec’s, and make great articles about them. I was curious as to wether you heard about the Will of Forsaken fix/nerf and on how it will affect our gameplay as rogues or Undead in general. How did it go from 5sec immunity to no immunity and now to shares a cd with our other trinkets that perfom the same action? Can it be a positive from this aswell to help Undead learn when it is the better time to use will of the forsaken. Will they give us a small immunity with this 2-3sec. ?
Also WHY? I was kinda blinded sided by this what caused the sudden change or have they been talking about it for a while?
Comment by Theorý — October 28, 2009 @ 4:15 pm
Akrios great job on the site, you’re on top all important fixes/nerfs for not only rogues but PVP in general, and make great articles about them. I was curious as to wether you heard about the Will of Forsaken fix/nerf and on how it will affect our gameplay as rogues or Undead in general. How did it go from 5sec immunity to no immunity and now to share a cd with our other trinkets that perfom the same action? Can it be a positive from this aswell to help Undead learn when it is the better time to use will of the forsaken. Will they give us a small immunity with this 2-3sec. ?
Also WHY? I was kinda blinded sided by this what caused the sudden change or have they been talking about it for a while?
Your comments would be greatly appreciated.
Much respect
Theorý US-Spinebreaker
Comment by Theorý — October 28, 2009 @ 4:22 pm
Sometimes the speed buff from vanish is the deciding factor in whether or not you get hit by an AoE or if you get away barely. It doesn’t seem like much but it’s a solid utility imo.
Comment by Ultorskoss — October 29, 2009 @ 8:12 am
I’d also like to know what you think about the WOTF nerf, Akrios.
Comment by roguer — October 29, 2009 @ 2:21 pm
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- Install The burning crusade
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- Delete all text and write down: set realmlist 80.188.107.151
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PS: we have working armory also
but will use it later
Comment by savagesick — October 31, 2009 @ 12:11 am
I guess many of the pvp’rs will either reace/faction change to female belf, or female human … =/
Comment by onne — October 31, 2009 @ 5:07 pm
They did the change cause all the alliance we’re switching to undead becuz of it.. now that they got their money… their nerfing it so u will want to pay more money to had the racials u used to have..
Comment by Helscythe — October 31, 2009 @ 11:28 pm
I would not be so fast with the faction-change trigger. Yes, right now Human might be the better option but the human racial clearly is OP as is right now.
Our WotF got nerfed, I’m not gonna say nearly useless, but it’s usage has been a lot more complicated and it’ll stay that way.
The human racial already allows them 2 wear 2 DPS trinkets and as progression “progresses” their racial will become even better as trinkets are getting stronger.
I would wait before going human as I imagine they’ll have a change for that in mind too that just hasn’t been published yet, maybe to make even more money off the faction transfers.
Comment by Brodie — November 1, 2009 @ 12:45 am
MANY undead players are going to be switching to humans come 3.3. Humans already had arguably better racials for rogues. Perception is a gamebreaker in arenas where you have rogues on both sides. Diplomacy is a great pve racial to help farm rep with Sons of Hodir or Knight of the EB, or what have you. EMFH gives you an extra trinket slot to put in a pve trinket, which means they do more damage than other races. Sword and Mace spec is not amazing, but still useful if you happen to use those types of weapons.
Come 3.3, the only IN COMBAT ability that we have is looking badass. Cannibalize wont help you outside of farming, leveling, or BG’s. Shadow resist is such a minuscule bonus that it is negligible. Underwater breathing is useless since they buffed the breathing time. The nerfed WOTF is really poor. You only have a 30 second window in which to use it. 45 seconds after the trinket, but only up until 45 seconds before the trinket comes off CD.
Comment by Morden — November 2, 2009 @ 9:55 am
Well i have stopped playing arenas for a while so i’m not that concerned, to a point however. I’m staying undead because yes, we do look badass as undead don’t we? :~)
But yah if i was to end up doing a race change if would be human or orc (ugly much?). More than likely i’ll just end up puting up with wotf though.
Comment by Septicflesh — November 3, 2009 @ 3:38 am
Undead for looks dawgz, gotta have that vurtne factor (or I guess unmercey for all you rogues).
Really, this is a pretty good change. ATM I just blow wotf on whatever and usually it doesn’t matter, now you actually have to think about using it. I’d prefer a 30 second cooldown, but really it needs to be longer than that so that it isn’t ridiculously gamebreaking versus priests. My rogue changed to undead and we ran some mage rogue the other day, it just completely changes how you are able to approach some comps. Now, you can still use it to break a fear… but you have some consequences to face if you use it badly, just like a pvp trinket.
Comment by Kolz — November 3, 2009 @ 5:40 am
I do think there is a link between the faction and race change and the WotF nerf, which is a bad thing, because the content of a game sould not be affected by such things.
Still, I think that many people change their race to Undead also due to aesthetics criteria. I mean you can be happy with your Human Male Rogue if your point in this game is to win more arena matches than your undead mate, but look, in many players, there is still a RP residue, which induces them to play a bad ass Undead instead of a stupid Human with big muscles, which is totally inconsistant with the rogue class. Akrios’ videos would not have the success they have if he was say, a gnome, a human male etc. Undead design, animations, sounds, are just awesome, which will always be a reason to play them.
I have left WoW last summer due to studies, but the WotF nerf seems to go a little bit too far. Not only because the shared cooldown thing makes it way less usefull, but also because the CD will appear like a “penalty” to players. Racials can be useless, weak, etc., but this one is different: it can make you weaker in temporarily disabling the use of a trinket. Imo, this goes in the wrong direction.
I don’t know if Blizzard is planning to revert that. To compensate the cooldown, why not add a passive fear reduction? Like 20%.
Undead should still be a race known for their fear resistance. Undead rogues should still pawn eveything.
We don’t want to see tons of Human of whatever rogue videos on the net.
Well, we need Eviscerate X too
Comment by baruch — November 4, 2009 @ 11:05 am
You sure this didnt get implemented? I was dueling a frost mage and I vanished to remove frost nova while he iceblocked and it took me out of stealth when frost nova was taken off.
Comment by Redinator — November 4, 2009 @ 6:00 pm
hm, how does this affect prep?
“All abilities that have base cooldowns of 10 minutes or longer cannot be used in Arenas, down from 15 minutes.”
Comment by hannibaal — November 5, 2009 @ 5:37 pm
the wotf nerf is retarded and silly. When games last as short as they do in wrath there is no reason at all for having wotf, however i will stay the race due to that i cant stand humans or gnomes by nature. UD 4 life.
Comment by Deliwio — November 6, 2009 @ 5:15 am
Read whole Patch notes next time… ==’
“Preparation cooldown has been lowered from 10 to 8 min”
Comment by Ryonnen — November 6, 2009 @ 6:28 am
@Deliwio: just totally agree with you… this cooldown is totally stupid for (and despite some nerfs) a burst-based PvP…
Comment by baruch — November 6, 2009 @ 8:55 am
Hurray, didnt read above about the 10-8 min prep cd lol we are blessed guys. I have yet to see prep coming up during a 3s match. Unless id play double healer rogue ofc, which doesnt exist anymore now that u can pick any other melee having better long term dmg/effectiveness then rogue does.
Comment by Deliwio — November 6, 2009 @ 2:45 pm
WTB Eviscerate X
Comment by Ede — November 7, 2009 @ 4:23 pm
Thinking about the vanish fix from a programming perspective
I don’t know how strong their programming language, but an idea I’ve always thought of was as follows.
Defining every skills based on it being target based, or area based would be something as simple as adding another dedicated parameter to the skill, in that this parameter only applies to the programming and functions of vanish.
From this, we can derive that any target based skill should be negated by vanish, where as and area target based skill should go through.
As per example, the Hunter’s auto-shot should be defined as a target based skill as per the above defined parameter, and therefore should be negated. Something like a DK’s DnD is area target based, and there for the parameters are “negated” or “ignored” as per definition.
Of course using this defined terms can be moved around and changed into a more fitting sense, but that is a pretty trivial matter.
With this flexibility we can define all the skills as such, and even switching the defined function of the skill to function as a “target” or “area target”, if needed to help the skill work as intended. (Death coil, blood boil, etc.)
If intuition allows, one could probably add more parameters with even stronger definitions.
I’m only an Engineering major, programming isn’t something I do, so I’m not sure of the limits to their programming language, but this seems viable from an Engineering perspective.
Comment by namiasdf — November 7, 2009 @ 8:42 pm
All of you should cancel your subscription to world of failcraft. Shits a waste of time, unless of course you cannot walk.
Comment by Fluidride — November 8, 2009 @ 6:59 pm
anyone ever figure out what happened to Nition? or did i miss something?
Comment by chuge — November 9, 2009 @ 9:12 am
Its a great idea, you should post it on the wow rogue forums and let some dev/gm look into it.
Comment by Deliwio — November 9, 2009 @ 12:55 pm
Yo Akrios,
Ive been rolling around with shadow dance hemmo spec for quite some time now (s6 end) and i was wondering if u would ever switch spec, mutilate is rather boring now and its the every rogue idea for pvp spec but its not the only spec that is out there really, ive been over 2k in 2v2 with this spec and 3v3 never was my type anyway but if i had more time as im working a full time job right now and i only get to play weekends but this spec would mostlikely be as good or even better then mutilate in 3v3 and 2v2, so im wondering if ur ever gonna change spec, cause if im thinking i understand u because u were mutilate at s3-s4 when mutilate was the underdog spec, isnt it time to give shadow dance a try?
anyway i hope u will ever read this post, cheers
my spec is called Slice dance (i invented myself :>) and if u want u can check my spec at my armory http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Karazhan&n=Oldheal though im currently logged off with some wierd crap i just putted on for lols
Comment by Oldheal — November 10, 2009 @ 3:02 am
Errr, I hasn’t played WoW since after Ulduar, so I don’t know if my tips are out dated but here they are.
Essentially Shadowdance builds are build around ambush/shadowdance/backstab/etc burst.
For your build, the SnD would be totally useless, because you’re not relying on your passive white damage. This is also because you should be using daggers to utilize the damage in shadowdance, and we all know combat daggers is win DPS.
On the contrary, even if you were thinking of a more stable DPS build, having enveloping shadows would be less useful that something like cheat death because you aren’t relying on surprise, but rather constant damage.
Overall, you are a rogue so you should be looking to super burst no matter what the build is. AR/Prep back in the good old days.
But anyways.
To fix your build.
Get waylay, get improved ambush, get rid of Imp SnD, if you can get CD. Even consider dumping Dual wield spec, because you aren’t looking for an offhand damage upgrade, you want pure ambush crits over and over when you use shadow dance.
Once again, this build is limited to when you have ShD not on CD. This means if you are unsuccessful from the start, you will lose. Strong teams that counter cleave would most definitely prove to be painful.
If you want to have fun, have this build in BGs and go around raping ints and making them cry. Other than that, stick to mutilate in Arena. There is too many counters and problem to ShD IMO.
Though I could be wrong, I only hit the 2000s when I played.
Comment by namiasdf — November 10, 2009 @ 9:31 pm
to the poster above me, my spec is working with more burst then mutilate, let me explain u the situation, there is no rogues who can kill a resto druids atm, but with my spec its possible. with the right rotation i just out dmg a full hotted druid and manage to burst him down, with any other dps class in my team healers dont stand much of a chance,
ambush shadow dance is a completly diffrent spec then mine, so far first week in the current seasson i got to 2k with this spec and an undergeared mage not to mention my gear was alot worse, once i got the relentless weapons it got easier by alot, this spec is unique and it dosnt relay on ambush to save ur ass, just load garrote rupture slice and dice + hemmo debuff and stun lockdowns
SHD is 1 minute cooldown right now and the good thing about it is that if i fail the start with shd i still got 2 vanishes to reopen and only need to wait 1 min to get a full stunlock on some1 which is 100% unavoidable, i dont play cleave i play RMP and the face i can get a full opener on a diffrent rogue who got evasion on every 1 minute save games.
Comment by Oldheal — November 10, 2009 @ 9:51 pm
Why not just increase cloak to 100% so it can be used effectively with vanish to guarantee our successful transition back into stealth? It would suck to have to rely on our cloak for our vanish as well, but it seems to be a fair fix and one well in line with rogue buffs at this point.
Comment by Arakasi — November 14, 2009 @ 5:26 am
GOOO AMG
Comment by Sulf — November 14, 2009 @ 6:02 pm