If you haven’t had a chance to see the WOTLK rogue changes yet, here are some new ones that just came out. (From the Beta Forums)
General
- Quality of life improvements: Removal of various reagents (Thieves’ Tools, Flash Powder) as well as a Poisons skill change. We’re removing the Poisons skill and making the finished poisons available on vendors for purchase. This should free up a fair amount of bag space.
- Envenom: Now also increases your chance to apply poisons by 25% for 2-6 seconds (based on combo points).
- Wounding Poison: No longer stacks. The first application now reduces healing by 50%.
- Anesthetic Poison: Now also removes one Enrage effect from the target.
- Evasion, Sprint, Vanish: Cooldown reduced to 3 minutes. (Talents that reduce cooldown take this down to 2 minutes.)
- Cloak of Shadows: Cooldown increased to 2 minutes. (Elusiveness now reduces this cooldown to 1 minute.)
- A new level 75 ability has been designed. This is going to be one of the bigger teases as we’re not quite ready to talk about this one yet. I will say that will add some much needed group utility.
- Fan of Knives: Weapon normalization to equalize effectiveness regardless of weapons carried.
Assassination
- Mutilate: No longer requires you be behind the target.
- Relentless Strikes: Talent is too “required” and will be made more accessible. Vigor will replace its spot in the tree and a new talent will be created to fill Vigor’s spot.
- Find Weakness: Made passive to cut down on the number of triggered effects that either don’t affect gameplay or affect it in a negative way.
- Cut to the Chase: No longer requires a critical Eviscerate or Envenom. The finisher just has to land.
- Hunger for Blood: Now removes any harmful physical effect instead of Bleed or Magic effects. Bleed effects will still be removed (as all are physical) as well as effects like Mortal Strike, Aimed Shot, Expose Armor etc…
Combat
- Riposte: Now generates a combo point.
- Mace Specialization: This will grant armor penetration when using a mace. (The warrior talent will as well.)
- Deflection: Reduced to 3 ranks for 2/4/6% parry. This should soften the prereq for Riposte.
- Fist Weapon Specialization: Merged with Dagger Specialization.
- Dagger Specialization: Renamed Close Quarters Combat, moved to tier 3.
- Dual Wield Specialization: Moved to tier 1. Lightning Reflexes swapped locations with it and still needs a little more “oomph”.
- Unfair Advantage and Stay of Execution: Change to more offensive/utility (read mobility) talents. Too much defense on this tier.
- Killing Spree: Weapon normalization to equalize effectiveness regardless of weapons carried.
Subtlety
- More attractive Tier 1 to draw in all types of builds.
- Fewer dagger specific talents to allow additional build options.
- Wrongfully Accused: Reviewed. This talent doesn’t fit well in this location. May be moved lower and/or redesigned.
- Shadow Dance: A bit awkward at the moment. Due for some polish and some design tweaks.
Plenty to do still as you can see. As I mentioned, this isn’t everything we’ve got our eye on but gives you something to discuss and look for in an upcoming beta patch. Please add to the list anything you think needs special attention.
Thoughts
Huge changes here, mostly good. A few of the bigger ones:
- Cloak of Shadows is now 2 minutes without elusiveness. This gives subtlety a big bonus. Although this looks like a fairly large nerf it comes with a lot of buffs, and two minutes isn’t an excessive cooldown. In the majority of situations 1 cloak is enough for an arena match, especially if you’re saving it.
- Envenom looks like it might actually have some use, especially on a target that you are just starting to build poisons on. Anesthetic poison feels like it might hold some utility in a group environment, or possibly have some use in warrior duels.
- The base cooldown reduction on sprint, evasion, and vanish are fair. While this won’t affect arena much, it will mean that we can play to our full potential more than once every 5 minutes.
- Wound poison no longer being stackable be instantly being equivalent to MS is both a buff and a nerf. If you’ll be playing mutilate with the increasingly strong poison talents, I don’t see you having a big problem keeping it on (especially with deadly brew, giving you the ability to reaply wound with every shiv). With other specs though, a single dispel can remove the all important MS effect. It’s too early to see how this will go but it’s something to keep an eye on.
Assassination - All of the changes seem great to me. Vigor was incredibly weak as a 31 point talent, and cut to the chase now seems worthwhile for any situation (especially with the buff to eviscerate and envenom).
The only thing I really hate about these changes comes in assassination, and that’s the removal of the positional requirement for mutilate. As someone who plays with 250 latency, I can safely safely say that this shouldn’t be a huge issue in using a positional ability like backstab or mutilate (yes, I understand that some people have exceptional latency, but a game should not be designed around this). Not only will the spell out a ton of dodges for mutilates outside of kidney shot, it also takes out some of the skill factor that existed here. Mutilate without positional requirements will feel similar to playing a mortal strike warrior. (hmm…maybe that isn’t so bad)
Hunger for Blood got a nerf and a buff at the same time. Warriors have always been the bane of rogues in arena, but with this ability their snares and all important MS will count for much less. This ability may have actually gotten better.
Combat – It seems as though blizzard is trying to make combat an all around build. Riposte has become a lot more accessible. Dual Wield being moved to the first tier is huge for rogues of any spec. It’s one of the best point for point damage talents available, and I predict it to be the rogue equivalent to Imp. Corruption (generally everyone will take this).
The changes to dagger specialization make it seem as though combat daggers may make a pve comeback. I’m not yet familiar enough with killing spree but from what I’ve heard it still needs some work before it’s finished.
Subtlety – It seems as though blizzard really isn’t finished with this tree yet. Not much new info here other than us learning that it will be further polished. Some changes to lower subtlety seem necessary, but I’m curious as to what will be done with wrongfully accused. Hopefully shadowdance is improved as well as it seems fairly interesting.
It also seems as though blizzard hasn’t forgotten about hemo which is good, as it will allow for more playstyle versatility for the class.
Overall: Some really exciting changes. It looks like our class is moving in the right direction now in WOTLK. Although we’ll wait and see, there seems to be a lot of options in terms of what spec to play for pve and pvp. Daggers are really going to make a comeback and blizzard seems to finally have the right idea for our class. We’ll have to wait and see what the future holds because none of this is really concrete yet.
Life on Blood Furnace
Although getting hacked for hopefully the final time has been a waste of time and energy, it looks like I’ll be able to get my gear back and transfer reversed shortly. In the mean time, I’ve been playing around with some rogues on blood furnace. Although moderately geared and without any titles to show, we got 2091 last night after two evenings of work and both of the rogues I was playing with will be able to get weapons. Although the rating is nothing incredible it shows that you don’t need pve gear (1 of the rogues had merciless weapons) or the best racials (one of the rogues was an Orc) to have some success with double rogue. It’s more about commitment and having the right strategy.
Related posts:
The new positioning of dagger specilization and imp dual wield, the major buff to cut to the chase and envenom… The time has come. Assassination is making a major rise in PVE viability in WOTLK, I can see it coming now. It’s just like how 31/8/13 was a pretty great spec in WoW Vanilla, I think assassination will be more than what it is now.
Great changes, some of them I believe were much needed.
Comment by Shizuka (Sargeras) — August 30, 2008 @ 9:09 pm
it was 31/8/12 FYI. or 30/8/13. =P. favorite spec of all time. never was a prep daggers guy.
Comment by elanti — August 30, 2008 @ 11:32 pm
Hmm… Mutilate facespam? What about talent Opportunity – does it still increases mutilate damage?
Comment by sadd — September 1, 2008 @ 8:31 am
I’d guess it doesn’t, but dual wield is a lot more accessible now
Comment by Akrios — September 1, 2008 @ 1:51 pm
akrios your my rogue idol
lol
i have a question…
-how do you feel about WoW being a cookiecutter game. Where only one spec is REALLY viable. For example, Sub for rogues , BM for hunters.
I wish theyd balance all the tress for all classes, w/o being teased “oh your that spec, spec this its better”
Comment by ♫s10soul♫ — September 1, 2008 @ 8:02 pm
Wow will never be a balanced pvp system.. its not a pvp game.. when will you guys learn that, just stop asking already
Wow is a pve game with pvp sprinkled in.. arena’s are just popular because there is nothing like it anywhere else.. if you want good pvp i suggest you play DaOC or the uncoming warhammer release..
Comment by shitty — September 2, 2008 @ 1:52 pm
Quote from: Gamnin (Source)
Here’s a quick update on some additional changes we’ve made over the weekend. Most of these, but not all, will be in the next beta build.
General
* Cloak of Shadows cooldown changed to 1.5 min.
* Disarm Trap range increased to 20 yds, cast time reduced to 1 sec, now requires stealth.
* (NEW – Level 75) Tricks of the Trade: The current party or raid member becomes the target of your Tricks of the Trade. The threat caused by your next attack and all actions taken for 6 sec afterwards will be transferred to the target. In addition, all damage caused by the target is increased by 15% during this time. 30 sec cooldown. (Surprise! Yes, this is the new group/raid utility ability. We haven’t put any stacking protection on it yet but we’ll need one type of solution or other to prevent the need for 5 rogue Trick rotations. Note also that you cannot use this ability on yourself.)
Assassination
* Vigor moved to Tier 3.
* Relentless Strikes moved to Subtlety Tier 1, made 5 ranks for 4/8/12/16/20% chance.
* Murder moved to Tier 6, now increases damage by 2/4%.
* (NEW – Tier 7) Overkill: Abilities used while stealthed and for 6 seconds after breaking stealth cost 10 less energy.
* Focused Attacks and Turn the Tables have swapped locations.
* Master Poisoner moved to Tier 9, no longer increases chance to hit with poison attacks, now increases the critical hit chance of all attacks made against any target you have poisoned by 1/2/3% and reduces the duration of all Poison effects applied to you by 17/34/50%. (This does not stack with the Paladin talent Heart of the Crusader.)
* Hunger for Blood duration increased to 30 seconds.
Combat
* Precision now also increases chance to hit with poison attacks by 1/2/3/4/5%.
* Nerves of Steel will now reduce damage taken while stunned or feared by 15/30% rather than reducing duration.
* Improved Sprint moved to Tier 4.
* Blade Twisting now slows movement speed by 70%.
* Mace Specialization now ignores 3/6/9/12/15% of target’s armor.
* Throwing Specialization now also has a chance to interrupt target when Fan of Knives is used.
* Unfair Advantage: Whenever you dodge an attack you strike back for 50/100% of your main hand weapon’s damage.
* Stay of Execution removed, replaced with Blood Poisoning.
* (NEW – Tier 9) Blood Poisoning: All physical damage caused to enemies you have poisoned is increased by 1/2%.
* Prey on the Weak now increases critical strike damage of all attacks.
* Killing Spree is the new name for Murder Spree and should be working much better very soon.
Subtlety
* Shadowstep will no longer be usable while rooted.
* Elusiveness moved to Tier 3, now reduces cooldown of Cloak of Shadows by 15/30 sec.
* Premeditation cooldown reduced to 20 sec.
* Preparation no longer refreshes the cooldown to Premeditation.
* Master of Deception reduced to 3 ranks.
* Opportunity reduces to 2 ranks for 10/20%.
* Camouflage reduced to 3 ranks for 5/10/15% speed and 2/4/6 sec off the cooldown of Stealth.
* Initiative moved to Tier 4, increased to 33/66/100% chance.
* Improved Ambush moved to Tier 4, reduced to 2 ranks for 25/50%.
* Serrated Blades moved to Tier 3.
* Wrongfully Accused replaced with Filthy Tricks.
* (NEW – Tier 9) Filthy Tricks: Reduces the cooldown of your Tricks of the Trade and Distract abilities by 5/10 sec.
* Slaughter from the Shadows now also reduces the energy cost of your Hemorrhage ability by 1/2/3/4/5.
* Shadow Dance redesigned, now allows the use of Sap, Garrote, Ambush, Cheap Shot, Premeditation, Pickpocket and Disarm Trap regardless of being stealthed. Those abilities all gain a cooldown of 2 sec. Lasts 10 sec.
credits : http://www.mmo-champion.com/
Comment by Pixelz — September 3, 2008 @ 10:45 am
That’s a terrible “hey i carried a rogue in 2v2 using my 2600 AP set!” story.
My Human rogue, reroll, got 2200 this season as double rogue (With a reroll) in full s2, with horrendous gemming/enchanting (Greens, blues, bad meta, below hit cap, 20 agi to weapons, deathfrost).
Comment by akriosloladios — September 3, 2008 @ 4:23 pm
I’m called Badiator on gurubashi. Both you and Nition has 2600AP and took so long to get 2200? What a joke scrub.
Comment by akriosloladios — September 5, 2008 @ 8:25 am
If you’re badiator I was watching you duel. You are slow and pathetically bad. It took us 2 days of actually playing to get shoulders, and neither of us have 2600 attack power. In conclusion, get off my nuts
Comment by Akrios — September 5, 2008 @ 1:39 pm
Badiator, you took imp poisons without any in master poisoner and you think 1800 AP = 2600 AP. lol.
Comment by Ac71v3 — September 6, 2008 @ 8:15 am
BAD-iator indeed.
Comment by Assailant — September 6, 2008 @ 8:25 am
It seems that Opportunity is still buffing Mutilate when striking from behind
Comment by Hadrhune — September 7, 2008 @ 11:15 am
check your emails akrios^^ i feel HPM is too weak when it comes to dmg but to me imp sap seems extremely important
Comment by bondubel — September 10, 2008 @ 12:45 pm
L2p guys, less emails so they can do more updates.
Comment by Ataraxia — September 10, 2008 @ 8:16 pm
Rogue (Skills List / Talent Calc. (8926))
* Anesthetic Poison now also dispels one Enrage effect on the target.
* Blade Twisting (Combat) now cause all damaging melee attacks to have a 10% chance to daze for 4/8 seconds, movement speed reduced by 70%.
* Camouflage (Subtlety) reduced to 3 ranks for 5/10/15% speed and 2/4/6 secs off the cooldown of Stealth.
* Cloak of Shadows cooldown increased to 1.5 min.
* Crippling Poison reduced to 1 rank, slowing movement by 70%.
* Dagger Specialization (Combat) renamed Close Quarters Combat, moved to tier 3, now increases critical strike chance with Daggers and Fist Weapons by 1/2/3/4/5%.
* Damaging poisons now scale with attack power.
* Deadened Nerves (Assassination) reduced to 3 ranks, now reduces all damage taken by 2/4/6%.
* Deflection (Combat) reduced to 3 ranks, increasing parry by 2/4/6%.
* Disarm Trap range increased to 20 yards, cast time reduced, now requires stealth.
* Dual Wield Specialization (Combat) moved to tier 1.
* Elusiveness (Subtlety) moved to Tier 3, now reduces cooldown of Vanish and Blind by 30/60 sec and Cloak of Shadows by 15/30 sec.
* Endurance (Combat) now reduces cooldown of Evasion and Sprint by 30/60 secs.
* Envenom now also increases your chance to apply poisons by 25% for 2-6 seconds (based on combo points).
* Evasion, Sprint and Vanish cooldowns reduced to 3 min.
* Find Weakness (Assassination) is now a passive talent, reduced to 3 ranks, increases damage of offensive abilities by 3/6/9%.
* Fist Weapon Specialization (Combat) removed.
* Improved Ambush (Subtlety) moved to Tier 4, reduced to 2 ranks for 25/50%.
* Improved Eviscerate (Assassination) now increases damage by 7/14/20%.
* Improved Expose Armor (Assassination) now reduces the energy cost by 5/10, no longer increases duration.
* Improved Poisons (Assassination) now increases chance to apply poisons by 5/10/15/20/25%.
* Improved Slice and Dice (Combat) reduced to 2 ranks, increases duration by 25/50%.
* Improved Sprint (Combat) moved to Tier 4.
* Initiative (Subtlety) moved to Tier 4, increased to 33/66/100% chance.
* Lethality (Assassination) now also affects Riposte.
* Lightning Reflexes (Combat) moved to tier 4.
* Mace Specialization (Combat) no longer stuns enemies, now ignores 3/6/9/12/15% of target’s armor.
* Master of Deception (Subtlety) reduced to 3 ranks.
* Mind-Numbing Poison reduced to 1 rank, slowing casting speed by 60%.
* Murder (Assassination) moved to tier 6, increases damage by 2/4%.
* Mutilate (Assassination) no longer requires you be behind the target.
* Nerves of Steel (Combat) now reduces damage taken while Stunned or Feared by 15/30%.
* Opportunity (Subtlety) reduced to 2 ranks for 10/20%.
* Poisons skill removed. All finished poisons are available on vendors rather than created by the rogue.
* Precision (Combat) now also increases chance to hit with poison attacks by 1/2/3/4/5%.
* Premeditation (Subtlety) duration increased to 20 seconds, cooldown reduced to 20 seconds.
* Preparation (Subtlety) no longer refreshes the cooldown of Premeditation.
* Relentless Strikes (Assassination) moved to Tier 1 Subtlety, made 5 ranks for 4/8/12/16/20% chance.
* Riposte (Combat) now slows the target’s melee attacks by 20% instead of disarming them, awards one combo point.
* Serrated Blades (Subtlety) moved to Tier 3.
* Shadowstep (Subtlety) is no longer usable while rooted.
* Surprise Attacks (Combat) now also increases Hemorrhage damage.
* Vigor (Assassination) moved to Tier 3.
* Wounding Poison no longer stacks, reduces healing by 50%.
credits : http://www.mmo-champion.com/
Comment by Pixelz — September 10, 2008 @ 11:28 pm
Looks like you guys are really hard pressed to find updates, or just lost interest, or something else.
Comment by Ataraxia — September 13, 2008 @ 8:14 pm
Yasth it’s almost 3 weeks and no updates. Welp I have an update for them I guess. Nition and Akrios transfered off of Gurubashi and on to Cho’ Gall.
Comment by Critler — September 16, 2008 @ 10:30 pm
I totally agree with what you say (I guess it’s Akrios ^^ ) about the positional requirement of Mutilate and I’m quite disappointed that Blizzard made such a move. I hope this can still change.
Maybe with the come back of backstab / ambush which require you to be behind the target they wanted to make things different for mutilate, but I fear this will result in a loss of burst damage for mutilate. I don’t have fears about the viabilty of mutilate and I guess it will become way more useful in arenas, but the gameplay will not be as exciting as before. Well I guess after few weeks we’ll get use to the new mut but…
Oh and I wanted to point out one thing that you don’t talk about in your comment: what do you think about the fact that (as far as I know), the stuns are not buffed or even changed in WotlK? It’s one of the main features (with stealth, burst damage and poisons imo) of the rogue, one that can make you love this class, and they seem to be ignored in the new expansion. When we see the new stun resist mechanics which reduce stun duration, many classes depending on talents will be able to lessen the stun duration: does this mean that rogues are going to rely less on stuns (I mean less as they rely now, I know they have other strenghts)?
Well if you can deal with these issues.
P.S. I can’t wait to see your new videos with WotlK, you’re by far the most skilled / intertaining to watch rogue I know, the simple fact that you prefer mutilate is great and your analysis about the rogue gameplay are very interesting too
Well I hope you get the meaning of my words, as you see I’m not fluent in english
bb
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